Curse

countesscorpula · Apr 23, 2007, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poison Ivy

Perhaps Anet wants to make 15ks and weapons more unaccessible, and encourage players to use collectors/greens/1.5ks?

At least it seems like what their trying to achieve.

Collectors:
With the decrease in "white" drops, collector items* are actually even harder to come by now more than ever.

Greens:
I killed a boss 20times today. No green. That's just anecdotal, so maybe others have a different take. I'll test some of my old Greenfarming builds later. But still, greens aren't that easy to come by either.

1.5k:
I have 10 playing chars, one for each profession. Only 2 have 15k. The rest have 1.5k. Often 2 sets so I can switch runes/builds. The amount of gold earned from farming now makes 1.5k the new 15k. A new player will have to grind for a month to be able to gather the 7.5k to get a full set of max armor. And if they do like I do, and have to sets so they can enjoy a variety of builds, thake that time and double it.

I don't consider myself to be an "average" player. I play a lot. A LOT. I've wracked up thousands of hours. I occassionally farm. Enough to get things when I need them (290 cap sigs later... it adds up). It seems with the cost of lock picks and their high tendancy to break, and the amount of money people can earn from "casual" farming, the earned gold from farms will not be able to cover the money in lost lock picks. For those who don't get my meaning:

4 lockpicks = 6k.
Assume you can open 5 chests with 4 picks (maybe, maybe not).
Drops from 5 chests = 2 grapes (one rune of major inspiration), 3 golds (1 max dmg with 1 perfect mod, 1 rune of superior strength, and a req 13 strength gold shield)

Value of chest drops = 100g for merching the major rune
189g for merching the grape item no one will buy
263g for merching the Sup Str - cause it's not in demand
289g for merching the Req 13 Streld**
?g for the Max dmg weapon.

Now, you've made 841g from four of your drops, and you spent 6,000g plus time to get them. The only way to recoup your funds from the keys is to sell the last item for a MINIMUM of 5,159g. That's not even making a profit... that's just breaking even. And with gold being harder to come by, finding a buyer for that +5k item is going to involve even more time spamming WTS in LA for stupid amounts of hours. Sure, you might occassionally get something you could sell for 10k, but in all honesty you are for more likely NOT to get one.

Even those with Max in the needed titles still have barely a 40% chance of not losing their pick. And if HM simply means more golds dropping w/o chests, then the gold item market is just going to be further saturated, meaning the potential to get a decent price on your item is even lower. Minimum price for any Rare items sold is 5k. Time it takes to earn 5k? About 5-6 hours of pure grinding (used to take 1 hour). I don't see the change in drop scaling helping out the average joe in any way. I DO see it increasing the amount of people visiting e-bay or gamegold.com (made that one up so I hope i don't get banned - but you know what I mean).

*like the guy you trade shells to for something - not Collector's Edition stuff or minipets
**you might be able to sell for 1k if you spend 3 hours spamming LA - but really...

LethalHands · Apr 23, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Oh come off it... what part of 'not required' do you not grasp? Why does hard mode need a point? Did you pay for hard mode? Do you need hard mode? Think really hard now. You don't need titles to carry to GW2. Whoever pointed that as an excuse for needing titles is a very silly small person. The few titles you do "need" are maybe one or two (sunspear and lightbringer) and the levels needed are stupid easy to obtain and most of the needed stuff is included in quest rewards. And that's exclusively for Nightfall. Only exceptions I can think of. Titles are not needed for anything. They may enhance certain things such as opening a chest with a lockpick, but you can do without the title. Not needed at all. If you're so hapless that you can't do it, that's your deal. Other people are doing it. Right now. Moreover, the game is built in your favor because of the above. NOT REQUIERED. You do not need it.

"QQ well what am I supposed to do now that I beat the games!?!"
Try going outside. Check out Super Paper Mario, go play Halo, pick your nose. Guild Wars will be here when you get back. If you want something to do in game, do something. They gave you plenty to do. I recommend PVP, you lot seem to be crying about mobs having extra advantages you can't have. PVP is the ultimate field of balance you can achieve because players don't have those advantages. They're all level 20, and there's not very many of them on screen at once. A lot of it is simple, straight forward, and easy. If you don't like any of it, try a new game. Quit crying foul and brooding the boards when you can't accomplish something optional, that many other people are doing with ease. It makes you look silly. Even fanboys take five once in a while. I wonder what to call you folks that play a game you can't find any point, reason, or fun in as zealously as a priest? Anti-fanboi's? Addicts? I swear a lot of you sound like my little brother.

lyra_song · Apr 23, 2007, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Well Im beginning to get a clearer picture here.

I think the issue lies in that, Anet is adding content that not everyone is willing to play, and that is inherently unfair, and at the same time even though you arent playing it, it is affecting you.

I do agree that this doesnt seem fair, the content is there as additional options but with global effects.

However the talking point would suggest that this is how the game inherently is a set of basic pve quests. Armors, weapons, titles etc are all part of the game, but not required for that main pve quest and serve as additional content.

The addition of hardmode and DOA seem to cater directly to the more hardcore player who have finished the primary quests and is just more content for them, essentially ignoring the casual player.

But.....does this mean the game itself is turning into a grind?

The recent loot system changes are going to have some drastic effect in the future of the game and i cannot really say exactly what. I do not think people should be so quick sign off on doom and gloom or success on this plan.

I think perhaps we should ask Anet for new content that will be accessible for casual players. Just to be fair.

Hey, PvP love, hardcore love, we need casual love! (that sounds so wrong...)

Polgara Darshiva · Apr 23, 2007, 05:14 AM // 05:14

All these updates have only one goal in mind.

Money Sink

There is way to much Gold floating around in the game at the moment and this is ArenaNet's attempt to remedy it. We keep getting new titles that costs stacks of gold to achieve, eg. sweet tooth, drunkard titles.

Now with even less gold dropping people will have to dig in to their cash reserves.

It's a market balance attempt that's being done the wrong way.

MerLock · Apr 23, 2007, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Instead of getting all these new titles and changes to drop, I would love to see them add small areas. The additional of Sorrow's Furnace, and Tombs was great. People still play them today and Sorrow's Furnace is still very fun to play through for me. On a PvE side the game play was very innovative and well designed. It was challenging and yet not so hard that a lot of people with certain toons would be excluded (like DoA).

I wish that was the way they went instead of adding hard mode and titles.

Doing new missions/areas/quests is what an RPG game is for me. Another thing I wish they did is to change the reward system for quests so that you can either select to get the money or a skill to one of your professions. Kinda like a combination of prophecies and factions/nightfall rewards.

Grasping Darkness · Apr 23, 2007, 06:23 AM // 06:23

I don't see the difficulty increase in making gold. If anything it's twice as easy now. I played for an hour or so tonight for the first time this weekend. It's so much easier that it's boring me so I'm going to sleep now.

Chop it Off · Apr 23, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

ive been playing hard and normal mode all night long, and amassed about 17k, just doing nothing really.

if i had stayed away from lock picks i would probably still have that money but ohwell.

as for hardmode, i will agree, casual players bane.

and im honestly tired of people bashing casual players. they paid for/earned the same content as EVEYONE else.

sure they dont HAVE to do it, but maybe, just maybe, they WANT to do it. they just dont have 4 hours to devote to a game.

people generally do lead lives outside of guildwars.
seems like some of the people in this thread forgot that.

Bankai · Apr 23, 2007, 08:42 AM // 08:42

This whole Hard mode discussion is really annoying me.

People wanted to be able to do something after finishing the game. Some people aren't happy with grinding. So ANet added the option to play hard mode, AND PEOPLE ARE WHINING THAT THEY SUCK TOO MUCH FOR HARD MODE. You don't have to play it, you know. It's an option. Personally, I haven't found hard mode very hard at all. You just can't do some missions with only henchies/heroes.

So? Get some people. There are currently a lot of people trying hard mode. Guilds are also a great option.

Look at the "Hard mode Tips and Tricks" thread. People are only posting how they had trouble until they started thinking, and started adapting to the areas.

Tell me, how is that grinding?

Hard mode is probably the least grind in the whole game. Farming is grinding. Getting luxon/kurzick faction is grinding. Getting sunspear/LB points is grinding. For some people, HA is grinding.

But Hard mode isn't grinding. You only need to complete each map once. It would only be grinding if you got a vanquisher point only after completely whiping a map 3 times.

Yeah, it is a bit hard on the casual players. But aren't most end-game missions/stuff? Hell's precipice can take quite a lot of time. Same for Sorrow's furnace. Same for the Gate of Madness. Same for UW/FoW. Same for elite missions. Same for Galrath. This isn't the first thing in the game that isn't very friendly for people who can only play half an hour a day.

But it's still manageable.

There are still plenty of areas you can complete in under an hour. And if you're whining that you can't get the title, you can't get ANY title apart from protector if you can't play for more than half an hour a day.

SotiCoto · Apr 23, 2007, 10:41 AM // 10:41

There is one very key point that people are forgetting here:
The social aspect of Guild Wars.

It is effectively impossible now for anyone except those with VERY secluded Guild Communities to remain oblivious of the overbearing elitist attitude in Guild Wars.

What isn't really twigging for folks is that having a Kind of a Big Deal title (or now, People Know Me, since KoaBD has been cheapened), Zodiac Weapons and 15k Fissure of Woe armour.... optional as they may be... has become a sign NOT ONLY representing that a person has tried hard and done well..... but that they are positively capable.
The counterpoint of this is that those WITHOUT such things are generally deemed to be incompetant and are treated as lessers on average as a result. In consequence: people without a set of especially kind and helpful friends (note: I got kicked out of two decent guilds so they could make way for "more capable" people) are actually FORCED to use Hero and Henchie parties constantly because no human will take them seriously.... or at least not any human better than a henchie...

As such, the divide between the Guild Wars "upper class" and the "lower class" grows ever wider... with more extreme prejudice between the two. Essentially, the lower class is being denied the game because those with any capability want nothing to do with them (or expect them to pay through the nose for help with money they don't have).

And in case for an instant anyone thinks this doesn't happen.... I tested in a few mission areas in Cantha.... trying to see how quickly and easily I got a party when equipping no title and using plain 1.5k canthan armour.... compared to my using 15k Kurzick armour (fully dyed in pink) and my Canthan Grandmaster Cartographer title (the best I have, sadly... and I deliberately didn't pick Protector as that would have shown specific connections to the missions at hand)....
Sure enough... the better kit and title got me a lot more invite requests (about twice as much on average) as without.
Now imagine if I'd gone in there with a People Know Me title, Black-Dyed Fissure of Woe armour and a Mini-Mallyx. I can guess that people would be sending me the invites and snubbing everyone without the titles and fancy armour as a result.... irrespective of whether they were actually better or not (and definitely no mention of the strength of their kit in terms of game mechanics).

Torqual · Apr 23, 2007, 11:16 AM // 11:16

That's an interesting point.... I've never looked at people's titles and armour before deciding whether to PUG with them: do people really do this?

I agree with ALL the posters above saying that Hard Mode is a nice OPTIONAL feature which - if you ask me (and no-one did) - adds 2 years' extra gameplay without adding any new content. And why not add new content? Well, (1) We didn't pay for any more and Hard Mode is free (2) More content will just spread players out more.

People were complaining that heroes had made the game was too easy and there was nothing left to do. People were complaining that there were not enough maxeable titles (for KOABD read 3 Protector + 2 Mapper).

So A-Net gives us lots more maxeable titles and a strong new challenge (Hard Mode) which actually requires you to form good parties of intelligent players.

Then people complain that the Maxed titles track has been cheapened and "OMFG I can't do Hard Mode with heroes!"

Hard Mode is not supposed to be mainstream. It's for the Hardcore who consider themselves 1337 and want an extra challenge. If it seems like grind for you then don't do it!

Main point is that A-Net have dangled an irresistable challenge to the 2,000+ hours players who thought they had cleared out the whole game and were wondering what they were supposed to do for the next two years. These players were in danger of drifting away and we actually need them in PvE to keep guilds active and help newbs.

Well done A-Net you did the right thing.

SotiCoto · Apr 23, 2007, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

That's an interesting point.... I've never looked at people's titles and armour before deciding whether to PUG with them: do people really do this?

Yes... yes they do. I've only actively been told once with my main char that I couldn't join a party because my title sucked... but my active tests with and without titles equipped have demonstrated a highly likely trend in favour of having swanky titles.

Quote:

So A-Net gives us lots more maxeable titles and a strong new challenge (Hard Mode) which actually requires you to form good parties of intelligent players.

Which is a major burn to those who do not have in-game friends... irrespective of personal ability.

Quote:

Hard Mode is not supposed to be mainstream. It's for the Hardcore who consider themselves 1337 and want an extra challenge. If it seems like grind for you then don't do it!

Guild Wars already had Heroes Ascent and the Domain of Anguish for that... Why make even more? Why the sweet hell would a game already corrupted by elitist attitudes and serious prejudice want to further magnify that problem?
If people want a challenge then they can make their own by shrinking group size in the normal areas. It isn't that confusing to make the game harder, but it is physically impossible to make the harder parts easier for those who cannot manage.

Quote:

Main point is that A-Net have dangled an irresistable challenge to the 2,000+ hours players who thought they had cleared out the whole game and were wondering what they were supposed to do for the next two years. These players were in danger of drifting away and we actually need them in PvE to keep guilds active and help newbs.

Help newbs?
HAH! Do you know how little that actually happens?
And might you consider that not only the newbs actually need help now?

It is innately programmed into the human psyche that we only do things if we stand to gain personally from them.... and there is not much gain to be had for the GW blue-bloods to help out those who just can't manage. Hence it doesn't happen all that often.
All that introducing new content does is drag back the casual gamers who don't give a damn about anyone else.... as opposed to the dedicated gamers who would continue to play it anyway and are actually more likely to help out people in need.

We don't need Hard Mode.
It just continues to drive the Guild Wars community into the dark ages.

lyra_song · Apr 23, 2007, 01:38 PM // 13:38

SotiCoto:

I think its a bit irresponsible to blame Anet for fostering flaws in humans in general.

The intent seems to me to add more high-end areas, effectively turning ALL 3 games into UW/FOW/DOA.

Is this effectively cutting out the "non-elite" player? Yes.

We have no barometer to tell us just how good a player is.

Titles, vanity items, etc do not speak honestly of a player's true skill. This is a problem with pugging, regardless of hardmode.

Players will exclude other players based on name, class, height, guild, title, armor, armor color, skillbar, etc.

How is Anet supposed to police or be held responsible for something like that?

This is something we as a community need to address, not Anet.

Lonesamurai · Apr 23, 2007, 01:44 PM // 13:44

I agree with Lyra...

This is why the guild system and the alliance system to a further extent, exists, so that people can play with people they (somewhat) trust and know might be half decent and will probably listen

GoodEnoughForMe · Apr 23, 2007, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

That's an interesting point.... I've never looked at people's titles and armour before deciding whether to PUG with them: do people really do this?

Yes, I am starting to notice this to. Unfortunately, nothing can be done about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

I agree with ALL the posters above saying that Hard Mode is a nice OPTIONAL feature which - if you ask me (and no-one did) - adds 2 years' extra gameplay without adding any new content. And why not add new content?

I agree. It provides those who have beat the games and accumulated titles to have a lot more challenging content and increase play time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

Well, (1) We didn't pay for any more and Hard Mode is free (2) More content will just spread players out more.

To be fair, we did pay for hard mode when we bought the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

Hard Mode is not supposed to be mainstream. It's for the Hardcore who consider themselves 1337 and want an extra challenge. If it seems like grind for you then don't do it!

I agree for the most part. Normal mode still exists for the more casual gamers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

Well done A-Net you did the right thing.

I think that the economical effect of all these changes won't be felt for some time still, it's still to early. For the most part, I like the addition of hard mode, my biggest problem with it is that it has made forming a PUG for missions and quests much harder, since it has effectively reduced the amount of available people; some looking for normal mode, some looking for hard mode.

SotiCoto · Apr 23, 2007, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonesamurai

I agree with Lyra...

This is why the guild system and the alliance system to a further extent, exists, so that people can play with people they (somewhat) trust and know might be half decent and will probably listen

... Doesn't account for the Recruit-Spammers in places like Kaineng Center and Haus Zu Heltzer... typically vying for cheap manual labor that they won't hesitate to fire on the spot if they aren't perfectly compliant.

Not to say I have personal experience of something exactly that bad, but I got kicked from my first guild because I was absent for a few days (less than a week), kicked from my second because they had got booted out of their alliance and the leader was getting rid of anyone who had been contributing less than amount as a kind of 'spite-cleansing'... and I voluntarily left my third because despite being on good terms with the guild leader (who let me in because I was a fellow hunter of Elite Skills), I got constantly complained about by the officers because I refused to participate in GvG and the final straw came when the Guild changed sides from Kurzick to Luxon in the midst of my gathering Amber for my 15k Kurzick armour (and my being an avowed Kurzick).

After that I went Ronin for a while, but got hassled so badly by the Recruit-Spammers that I made my own guild just so they wouldn't spam me any more.

And now I have a guild + alliance of ONE MEMBER...
Me.

So I can't play with anyone I trust nor can rely on. It is heroes + henchies or pugs.... (not least since most of my friends list is never online any more and the others are always busy).

I swear... the highlight of my GW day is just to hang out in some mission prep area somewhere and play the clown to amuse people waiting to go in.

william1975 · Apr 23, 2007, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by LethalHands

Did you pay for hard mode? Do you need hard mode? Think really hard now.

The general statement I don't disagree with, but this I do. When Nightfall released the game was not complete, there was promise of updates that were not included yet. One of these was the ability to max the Lightbringer and Sunspear titles, which Anet said they had hoped to have out pretty soon after release, this developed into Hard Mode.

To max those titles, the former of which makes later stages of the game easier, it is necessary to use Hard Mode, therefore those that bought Nightfall did pay for Hard Mode, that it came out so late after its release is not their fault.

However this does not mean I think that Hard Mode should be easier, it just means that I think it was paid for, as the Elite areas are too. However they too are for the hardcore elite players too. I think Hard Mode would be boring if it was easily done, because then it would be just repeating the same game again with no new challenges.

lyra_song · Apr 23, 2007, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

... Doesn't account for the Recruit-Spammers in places like Kaineng Center and Haus Zu Heltzer... typically vying for cheap manual labor that they won't hesitate to fire on the spot if they aren't perfectly compliant.

Not to say I have personal experience of something exactly that bad, but I got kicked from my first guild because I was absent for a few days (less than a week), kicked from my second because they had got booted out of their alliance and the leader was getting rid of anyone who had been contributing less than amount as a kind of 'spite-cleansing'... and I voluntarily left my third because despite being on good terms with the guild leader (who let me in because I was a fellow hunter of Elite Skills), I got constantly complained about by the officers because I refused to participate in GvG and the final straw came when the Guild changed sides from Kurzick to Luxon in the midst of my gathering Amber for my 15k Kurzick armour (and my being an avowed Kurzick).

After that I went Ronin for a while, but got hassled so badly by the Recruit-Spammers that I made my own guild just so they wouldn't spam me any more.

And now I have a guild + alliance of ONE MEMBER...
Me.

So I can't play with anyone I trust nor can rely on. It is heroes + henchies or pugs.... (not least since most of my friends list is never online any more and the others are always busy).

I swear... the highlight of my GW day is just to hang out in some mission prep area somewhere and play the clown to amuse people waiting to go in.

:[ That does suck. Well i hope in the future you can get good pugs so you can look past you personal experience to see that hardmode is meant to give you more content to play with, not to ruin your fun.

SotiCoto · Apr 23, 2007, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

:[ That does suck. Well i hope in the future you can get good pugs so you can look past you personal experience to see that hardmode is meant to give you more content to play with, not to ruin your fun.

Good PuGs happen occasionally.

That is why I still bother asking sometimes.
I don't tend to get my hopes up... but just sometimes I'll accidentally team up with an exceptionally good leader (and people who will actually follow commands).... or on the odd occasion when I'm in charge, others who will actually do as I tell them to and get it right.
And those are some of the few things that still give me a sense of satisfaction in GW.

But then about 50% of PuGs are Warriors (I find that having a Minion Master in a party makes most tanks redundant), and most of those are wammos (which I just have issues with). Rangers are also overabundant, and while they have their uses I'm not too fond of them either. My preferred party build is formed primarily of Elementalists (Several Nukers), Necromancers (MM and SS at least) and a couple of Monks.
Something silly like 80% of PuGs are just walking egos with no concept of cooperation.

Torqual · Apr 23, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Not to say I have personal experience of something exactly that bad, but I got kicked from my first guild because I was absent for a few days (less than a week), kicked from my second because they had got booted out of their alliance and the leader was getting rid of anyone who had been contributing less than amount as a kind of 'spite-cleansing'... and I voluntarily left my third because despite being on good terms with the guild leader (who let me in because I was a fellow hunter of Elite Skills), I got constantly complained about by the officers because I refused to participate in GvG and the final straw came when the Guild changed sides from Kurzick to Luxon in the midst of my gathering Amber for my 15k Kurzick armour (and my being an avowed Kurzick).

After that I went Ronin for a while, but got hassled so badly by the Recruit-Spammers that I made my own guild just so they wouldn't spam me any more.

And now I have a guild + alliance of ONE MEMBER...
Me.

I love your posts! How do you have a talent for picking such godawful guilds!

When I get home I am going to invite you to our guild. We are PvE only, UK based and don't place any requirements on our members. I am sure you will not accept but I am going to invite you anyway just to annoy you.

Torqual · Apr 23, 2007, 03:56 PM // 15:56

BTW I am wondering whether your lack of PUG invites is not down to Armour & Titles but the old A/Me.... I'm sure it could be devastating, for example with IW, but for most people, well A/Me is not cookie cutter and you're going to have to make a case for inclusion which you wouldn't as a W/Mo, N/Mo, E/Me.

I'm a realist...shoot me.